Bill Nye in the Lion’s Den of Creationism

Jim was on fire, and this episode is like four shows in one!

There are so many original things said in this episode that you won’t hear anywhere else.

If you were a creationist, but you’ve evolved in your thinking…


If you know a creationist and want to learn how to talk to them in a way that might make a difference…


If you’re curious, and you just want to learn how other people think or what makes them tick…

THEN, this episode – where we revisit the Ken Ham vs Bill Nye, creation or evolution debate on its tenth anniversary – has something for you.


Why are we doing a show about creationism, of all things?

Good question. I assume you notice the -archy in our show’s name. It’s reasonable to ask, “Isn’t this show about how we govern ourselves?”

Yes, it is. But this is an occasion where we’re a bit more focused on the other audience we wish to reach because…

We believe everyone who claims to be a Jesus-follower should be a voluntaryist!

Watch on Rumble


They know something is wrong

Lots of people are seeing the lack of grace in their local church or denomination. They know something is wrong. Many of them are “Done” with church, and we want to create a space for these persons.

Frankly, they have no place to go. They’re “out of place” and worse, they don’t know why!

We think, especially if you do NOT believe, that…

Many of these people are potential allies as we ZAP the State

We want Gracearchy with Jim Babka to be, for these people, a voice they hear in the wilderness. So I’m asking not merely for your indulgence in this, but even for your help in distributing this unique “governance by grace” approach. Please listen, or at least, don’t tune out on our work; come back and listen to the next episode.

At the top, I told you this episode was like four episodes in one. Here are four big themes we cover…

1. What is the primary motivation of The Creationist movement? They believe something is at stake. So, why are they failing at this existentially important goal?

2. Have you heard of deconstruction? It’s the cause of the current young adult generation. The methods of creationism backfire, provoking a quest for truth. Where will they land?

3. If you’re trying to help a creationist understand science, Jim has advice. He shares his journey from creationism, including what moved him and what turned him off. He has real solid, actionable advice. And, as always…

4. Grace. As usual, Jim provides “third-way” approaches to this debate. He also explains how Bill Nye’s choice to speak up in a room full of people who disagree was an example of the power of grace.

Please disregard the episode length. This show is densely packed with insights. Listen in bits, if you must. You’ll definitely learn something, and you’re likely to be glad you did.

You can listen while you work or drive on these podcasting platforms: Pandora * iHeart * Spotify

We’re featuring today’s episode on…


The Zero Aggression Project sponsors and promotes this podcast. In March, we intend to announce big, new plans for this program. So, we’re asking for your financial support — please, start a monthly pledge or make a one-time contribution.  Contributions to our parent organization, Downsize DC Foundation, are tax deductible if you itemize.

ZAP The State and have a nice day,

Bill Protzmann
Moderator, Gracearchy with Jim Babka

Gracearchy is hosted by Zero Aggression Project’s co-founder, Jim Babka, but the views expressed in the show are not necessarily those of the board, staff, or supporters of the Zero Aggression Project (Downsize DC Foundation).

Show Comments 2


  1. This nails quite a bit of things, including the Ken Ham information. What I find fascinating is Michael Behe, a Catholic micro biologist and strong proponent of the Intelligent Design Movement, has actually moved toward an AIG position in relation to what species are, and what bara-min (kinds) are. They used to mean something very similar, and it would be closer to the “Family’ classification than what we define species as currently. Michael Behe’s Darwin Devolves is a must read for the real science ( as an actual, observable science ) involved in claiming there is a Designer (and the definition of species). He and others ( like Johnathan Wells), are attempting to falsify whether it actually requires intelligence to build a cell, and the more they try to falsify it, the more it is proven. Frankly, Ken Ham has grown up a bit since then, (and he would not have been the best choice, IMHO, for defending creation) and has come to a closer conclusion to the correct answer, than was once thought.

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