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ZAP COVID-19!

By Perry Willis

The Zero Aggression Principle says, “Don’t aggress against others, personally or politically.” But who decides what aggression is?

My position has always been that juries should define aggression. In a ZAP-based society…

  • No law would be invoked or jury formed until there’s clear evidence that one person has aggressed against another.
  • No legal proceeding occurs unless the cost of the harm is greater than the cost of adjudication.
  • No cost or punishment is imposed until a unanimous jury agrees that aggression happened.

So how would this approach deal with viral infections? Let’s consider a few cases…

Case #1: A man knows he has HIV but doesn’t tell his sex partner.

That’s clearly aggression. Juries would call it a crime.

Case #2: Sex occurs after the HIV-positive person informs the partner. (Such things do happen.)

Probably no jury would view that as an act of aggression. The uninfected person consented to the risk.

Case #3: Two fully-informed HIV-positive people have sex.

It’s hard to imagine a charge being leveled in such a case, let alone a jury verdict.

Please notice that the virus is the same in our first three cases, but differences in knowledge and consent determine whether aggression occurred.

Case #4: Does the verdict change if the virus is the common cold?

A woman goes to work with a cold. She spreads the virus to hundreds of others. Some people get sick. Did she commit an act of aggression?

Most juries would say no, but why?

It’s just like the first HIV case. The perpetrator knew she was contagious. The victims did not know and were given no choice in the matter. So why is the judgment different? There are several possible answers…

  • HIV is spread through bodily fluids. A cold is spread through breathing. Sex is optional, breathing isn’t.
  • We’re used to infecting each other with colds.
  • It’s impossible to prove precisely who gave you a cold.
  • Unlike HIV a cold usually isn’t fatal unless it leads to pneumonia.

One other point seems crucial – the cost of adjudication would be greater than the harm done, so it’s hard to imagine such a case even being brought to trial.

But what if the virus was slightly more lethal?

Case #5: The flu

Going to work with the flu can cause pain, lost income, and sometimes death. That sure sounds like aggression to me, but, as with a cold…

  • It would be difficult to prove who exactly gave you the flu.
  • The adjudication cost would usually be larger than the harm done by the infection.

This suggests that knowingly spreading the flu is an act of aggression, but not legally actionable. Which brings us to…

Case #6: COVID-19

Politicians have placed hundreds of millions of people under virtual house arrest.

Arrest implies that juries rendered guilty verdicts in trials. But no such trials happened, and most of those imprisoned don’t even have the virus.

In addition, those who catch the bug could contribute to herd immunity. Nationwide house arrest interferes with that opportunity.

Or, if herd immunity isn’t possible, then a vaccine is also unlikely to be fully effective. That’s because herd immunity and vaccines work through the same process. But if herd immunity isn’t possible, that also means the virus will be with us constantly, like the flu and the common cold.

Will we impose house arrest on people each year? No jury would ever agree to that.

Can you begin to see why the politicians skipped due process when it comes to COVID-19?

Due process is slow, time-consuming, and renders too many decisions the politicians don’t like.

Politicians much prefer regulations. The like dictates they can impose without interference from checks and balances and due process. The politicians justify this regulatory approach because of…

EMERGENCY!
CRISIS!
ENEMIES!
BLACK SWANS!
EXISTENTIAL THREAT!
VIRUSES!

And millions of people surrender their right to due process because of these fears. So…

What can zero aggression offer to combat these demons?

My local grocery store addressed the COVID-19 problem without using aggression…

  • Those who feel that masks help, and who feel at risk, can wear them.
  • Those who think masks don’t work, or who feel strong enough to contribute to potential herd immunity, can shop barefaced.
  • And those who feel most at-risk can shop during an hour designated only for them when everyone must wear masks.

This non-aggressive approach serves multiple needs…

  • It protects at-risk people.
  • It preserves economic activity. It speeds the attainment of potential herd immunity.
  • It maintains individual freedom.
  • It provides scope for personal responsibility.
  • It gives us an alternative to tyrannical power exercised by politicians and bureaucrats.

Meanwhile, other people are taking steps to improve their innate immune system by sunbathing and taking appropriate supplements, such as vitamin D.

These steps could improve resistance enough to move at-risk people into the safe category, and make still other people asymptomatic.

At-risk people should also self-isolate. People with symptoms should do the same.

In a culture of non-aggression each person takes steps well-calibrated to meet his or her specific situation.

By comparison, the politicians have imposed their preferred policies on everyone, absent any constitutional authority. This illegal and immoral arrogance has cost us trillions of dollars! And please take note…

COVID -19 appears to be 4 to 10 times more deadly than the average flu virus, and yet the politicians have imposed restrictions that are a MILLION TIMES greater than what we do for the flu!

This is an overreaction by any standard of measurement!

Legal controls on political power were designed to prevent such gross errors! But these controls fail when people submit to fear.

The Zero Aggression Principle gives us a way to do better in the future, IF we can make it a central part of all human cultures. You can help achieve that goal in three ways…

ZAP COVID-19!

Show Comments 163

 

  1. From information I have seen from other sources, covid 19 is not more lethal than the flu but less.

    1. I’ve seen the same stats:
      https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/qa/how-many-hospitalizations-and-deaths-occur-from-the-flu#:~:text=The%20flu%20is%20linked%20to%20between%203%2C000%20and,was%20created%20to%20try%20to%20avert%20these%20epidemics.

      It depends on the year, but in the case of COVID 19, they are counting people with pre-existing conditions as COVID deaths, which they don’t usually do in ‘regular’ flu seasons.
      https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-hospitalization

        1. The overcounting is much worse than MSM is letting on. I’m personally familiar with the PCR criteria, and its use with C-19 is way out of line. Not only are false positives at a completely unacceptable level (but that is disregarded), the so-called true positives have multiple variables that leave huge room for doubt about what is actually being identified.
          From my POV, I’d say the number of actual true cases of C-19 infx is about 25% of the stated numbers.
          The stats on reported deaths from C-19 are likewise off-the-charts unacceptable. But I haven’t studied any of that closely.

          1. New Research indicates T cells are much more accurate than antibodies…

            WHY AREN’T WE USING T CELL TESTS & TREATMENTS FOR COVID…. Coronavirus immunity might be even higher than tests show …
            Search domain bgr.com/2020/07/02/coronavirus-immunity-antibody-test-t-cells-count-herd-immunity/https://bgr.com/2020/07/02/coronavirus-immunity-antibody-test-t-cells-count-herd-immunity/
            The UK researchers considered using a T-cell test as an early indicator of what patients might experience a severe COVID-19 case. They’re also testing interleukin 7 (IL-7) in COVID-19 therapies …
            Coronavirus: T-cell tests better at tracking spread of …
            Search domain http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-immunity-test-t-cell-antibody-community-a9625811.htmlhttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-immunity-test-t-cell-antibody-community-a9625811.html
            Coronavirus: T-cell tests better at tracking spread of Covid-19 than antibody tests, study claims. Scientists call for widespread checks of T-cell immunity for ‘next part of the battle’

      1. Feeling panicked still? Don’t be.

        The power of HYPE & fear mongering is an all out assault…..we need to face FACTS. It’s not that deadly. Look at the statistics. IF THAT DOESN’T CONVINCE YOU IT’S A HUGE FRAUD NOTHING WILL.

        —there have been 622,122 reported deaths. That is 0.008% of the population. Which gives you better than a 99.9% chance of NOT dying from Covid-19…

        Why are we shutting down the economy, wearing masks, social distancing…..and why are they wasting all this money on useless interventions like contact tracing?

        FACTS —World population 7.8 Billion. Total Covid-19 cases worldwide 15.5 million. That is 0.19% -Of this, there have been 622,122 reported deaths. That is 0.008% of the population. Which gives you better than a 99.9% chance of NOT dying from Covid-19… You see without the fear being pushed on you, they cannot sell vaccines and drugs, nor justify shutting down the world economy. Because if people really knew that the chances of them catching, and dying from Covid-19 were 0.01% they would start to think…. what the hell is really going on?

        https://gregorymannarino.substack.com/p/i-want-to-share-this-with-you?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=cta

      1. Incredibly brazen, smug and arrogant… both he and his wife. How would anyone allow, or even embrace ‘leadership’ from this guy? He’s a software guy. Created an computer operating system that gets infected with viruses every day.

        1. As is typical for other natural or potentially manmade ‘crises’, the proposed cure is worse than the disease.
          https://reason.com/2020/03/30/the-world-must-not-mimic-chinas-authoritarian-model-to-fight-covid-19/

          Even if the typical pattern of counting COVID-19 cases as ‘anyone who dies with COVID whatsoever will be counted as a COVID death’, we still have a less than a one percent chance of getting COVID and having a severe reaction to it. In spite of (or because of, IMHO) extremely statist reactions by some states, most notably New York and Michigan, we still have such states as leaders in COVID deaths.

          https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/520729-michigan-supreme-court-again-rules-against-whitmers-covid-19-orders

          https://www.foxnews.com/media/california-pastor-coronavirus-church-newsom-order

          Of course, as left-statists the restrictions are arbitrary and capricious, targeting churches and people of faith while ‘peaceful protesters’ (some of whom are anything but) can gather with impunity in spite of the significant health benefits of church attendance:
          https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/10/16/ending-californias-lockdown-on-churches-is-compatible-with-science-and-good-health/
          http://scientificintegrityinstitute.org/PM2008.pdf

          https://www.dailywire.com/news/wsj-investigation-cuomo-de-blasio-pandemic-response-contributed-to-new-york-death-toll

    2. We have the cure already but it’s being suppressed.

      Why isn’t it available over the counter here? We’ve been lied to. Fauci should be jailed. He’s instrumental in a lot of deaths.

      Did you know if you aren’t hospitalized you can get a prescription…why do we even need one?

      Doctors are speaking up….Good video on here https://www.brasscheck.com/video/doctors-are-being-censored-over-hydroxychloroquine/
      DOCTORS ARE BEING CENSORED OVER HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE
      AN ORCHESTRATED ATTACK ON A 65 YEAR OLD MEDICATION
      AVAILABLE OVER THE COUNTER IN MOST COUNTRIES

      We’ve been talking about this problem for years: the savage censorship of medical information by the Pharma-controlled news media.

      Now the whole world is paying the price.

      South Dakota has a low death rate because they are the only state that did not restrict HQ

      The orchestrated attack on a safe, 65 year old remedy that is available over-the-counter in countries all over the world.

      NOT ONE DOCUMENTED CASE OF A STUDENT TRANSFERED TO A TEACHER IN THE WORLD !!!

    3. The miscounting is being investigated in some places, (see link below to Orlando news) . Lowe’s is actually taking this advice, and getting slammed by some for it. Give Lowe’s some love and sign this petition from change.org.
      https://www.change.org/p/lowe-s-ask-lowe-s-to-continue-allowing-customers-to-choose-whether-or-not-to-mask?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_23828269_en-US%3A2&recruiter=514004243&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition

  2. download here:
    https://krisannehall.com/index.php/resources/articles/616-mandatory-mask-rights-flyer-for-individuals-and-businesses

    ATTENTION CUSTOMERS

    Those in government have ordered

    all persons entering indoor facilities

    wear a mask.

    IF YOU HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION,

    that prevents you from wearing a mask

    you are exempt from this order !

    Due to HIPAA & the 4th Amendment

    we CANNOT legally ask you about your

    medical condition.

    Therefore, if we see you without a mask, we

    will assume you have a medical condition and

    we will welcome you inside to

    support our business.

    We are constantly sanitizing & circulating

    fresh air throughout this business everyday.

    Thank you for your support & understanding.

    In Compliance with ADA & HIPAA Laws

    Out of Respect for Your Privacy

    —another version—

    According to ADA

    Masks Not Required

    Anywhere in America !

    No business may deny you service because you refuse to wear a mask.

    Violation punishable by $75.000 federal fine !

    Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)

    1.) Requires reasonable accommodation to anyone

    who cannot wear a mask due to a medical condition.

    2.) You cannot be forced to disclose any medical condition.

    SCOTUS recognizes a constitutional right to privacy.

    3.) Your right to privacy of medical history is further

    protected by the 5th Amendment.

    ASSERT YOUR RIGHTS

    ADA Information hotline

    800-514-0301

    800-514-0383 (TTY)

      1. You think HIPAA allows businesses to question our health?
        https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html
        Filing a Complaint
        If you believe that a HIPAA-covered entity or its business associate violated your (or someone else’s) health information privacy rights or committed another violation of the Privacy, Security, or Breach Notification Rules, you may file a complaint with the Office for Civil Rights (OCR). OCR can investigate complaints against covered entities (health plans, health care clearinghouses, or health care providers that conduct certain transactions electronically) and their business associates.

        There have been notable updates to HIPAA to improve privacy protections for patients and health plan members over the years which help to ensure healthcare data is safeguarded and the privacy of patients is protected. Those updates include the HIPAA Privacy Rule, HIPAA Security Rule, HIPAA Omnibus Rule, and the HIPAA Breach Notification Rule.

        A HIPAA violation is a failure to comply with any aspect of HIPAA standards and provisions detailed in detailed in 45 CFR Parts 160, 162, and 164.

        1. Again, read your own text. Your local grocery store is not a “HIPAA-covered entity or its business associate”. Your local grocery store does not have healthcare data on you. You are not a patient of the grocery store.

          Since you claim to be an attorney, can you link me to a court ruling on this? You’re not the first person to claim that HIPAA operates in this way. Have you litigated a case on this without settling?

        1. You forgot to use a different account name when you replied to yourself lol. Read your own link: HIPAA is about protecting medical records. Medical organizations have your medical records and HIPAA has strict rules on how they can share those records. Somebody asking what your medical issue is as a requirement for entering a private business is not the same thing as your doctor sharing your medical records which contains your personal information.

          1. Wrong….they need your AUTHORIZATION & you do not have to comply because of HIPAA

    1. The businesses in my area say
      “If you cannot wear a mask for medical reasons, please use our online ordering and contactless delivery,” and actively bar unmasked people from entering the store.

      The big issue for retailers is the fear of many shoppers of maskless (or improperly-masked, even if social-distancing) fellow shoppers and non-social-distancing (even if properly masked). As they are dependent upon the approval of in-store shoppers, they are actively barring those who cannot wear masks for medical reasons from shopping in-store, and claiming (NJ) state and local laws as the reason.

      The retail industry encourages this type of behavior to maintain customer confidence.

      Since retailers are private businesses (even if corporations, and publicly-owned), they have the legal right to impose whatever restrictions they like upon shoppers as long as it isn’t racial, sexual, or gender-related. (The issue with masks and medical conditions is that they can state, with government backing, that the unmasked person is endangering the health of all shoppers.)

      1. Post
        Author

        My article suggested that the needs of all could be met by having separate shopping times for mask-mandatory and mask-optional. – Perry Willis

        1. One might hope – but the mask-mandatory folk will complain that the mask-optional folk’s germs might still be present in the internal ventilation systems. This is a panic reaction I’ve seen on many social media.

          FWIW, if they are so afraid of getting COVID-19 (and these are mostly stay-at-home moms and work-from-home entitled folk), why don’t *they* just use DoorDash or the like? (Oh, right: those folk probably have more germs from interacting with more people doing all those deliveries to try to make their rent payments.)

  3. Thanks for providing a voice of reason in the jungle of madness.

    The question that remains and that seems to elude any workable answers is: “how do we get the masses, stupefied by corporate media, to listen, to think critically, and to respond logically? “

    1. Post
      Author

      Repeated attempts at persuasion are all we have. The good side of this mess it that it gives us a new reason to talk about the Zero Aggression Principle.

    2. Keep posting the facts…

      STATS WAY OFF ???

      Since they already know the tests don’t work….why are they still using them?

      How can they be this confused? Did they retest using a different test?

      THEY ARE USING THIS TO CONVINCE US THAT WE NEED TO DO WHAT THEY SAY

      https://www.naturalblaze.com/2020/07/florida-labs-acknowledge-major-errors-after-reporting-positivity-rates-of-100.html?utm_source=Natural+Blaze+Subscribers&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=f20d609895-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_term=0_b73c66b129-f20d609895-388062513

      Florida Labs Acknowledge “Major Errors” After Reporting Positivity Rates Near 100%

  4. Excellent article, Perry. Thanks.
    The extrordinary fear continues, though. An invisible devil creating a “you’re gonna die” fearful pandemic, with media constantly fanning the flames, leaves no room for sanity. Feedback loops are fully in play. It’s a brilliant strategy, and it’s working flawlessly… assuming you feel that there are ulterior motives involved. I don’t see any easy way out.

  5. These unconstitutional policies are setting up businesses for lawsuits.

    In Western Pennsylvania, Giant Eagle supermarket is facing over 30 lawsuits for not allowing shoppers to enter who are not wearing masks due to disabilities. Lawsuits are likely to continue for months to come, as more and more people stand up for their rights.

    1. In various social media, I’m seeing people actively organizing boycotts of stores (and entire chains) who allow unmasked and improperly-masked customers to enter, regardless of medical status. It’s only a matter of time before someone (who might have caught COVID-19 from somewhere else) decides to sue a chain for multiple millions of dollars…

      1. Post
        Author

        This could be addressed by having separate shopping times for mask-mandatory and mask-optional, as suggested in the article. – Perry Willis

        1. Assuming a free society it would be Perry. We live in an unfree society, where reason, rights, and choice are trumped by violence.

  6. But, if wearing a mask is proven to be effective against the spread, and “safety measures” exist until the spread is contained, why is it aggression to require people to wear masks? Seems to me, the more people that wear masks, the quicker the containment and therefore the quicker we’ll be out of the restrictions.
    Wearing a mask does not cause harm to the majority of individuals. Those with medical reasons, of course, do not wear a mask. I would also venture to guess those with medical issues preventing the wearing of a mask are much more cautious about being in public, so the numbers of people without masks on should be a very small amount.
    Regardless, the act of not wearing a mask by an asymptomatic person can certainly be seen as a form of aggression. If you don’t know if you have the virus, take the safe road for the benefit of everyone else.

    1. Post
      Author

      One problem with forcing people to wear a mask is that it potentially slows the acquisition of herd immunity. Another problem is that it uses excessive force given that at-risk people can easily protect themselves by shopping during designated hours, without having to impose on people who are not at-risk.

      1. Herd immunity immunity is not a given – the experts are not yet in consensus that herd immunity will work against COVID-19.

        I think the opposite, if you do not want to wear a mask, then just stay home. It is not just the other shoppers, it the workers. And the people the other shoppers are shopping for – for example, me shopping for the at-risk elderly so they don’t have to. What good is it if I contract it because someone refuses to don a simple piece of protective equipment (i.e. a mask).

        Let’s not forget how quickly things spun out of control in Italy. Preventing the rapid spread and overwhelming of our health-care system is everyone’s responsibility.

        1. Thank you for being a voice of reason. Herd immunity works by getting most everyone infected so that it stops spreading between people who have already had it. The problem is that people are dying from getting infected, so maybe let’s not aim for herd immunity eh?

          1. Bob Wentz:
            People are dying from many deceases. Herd immunity has always been our best defense. And nothing else we have done is working. So, let’s stick with what has worked, eh?

          2. From what I have been reading, there is a core of medical research that suggests that herd immunity might be impossible, as well as counterproductive. A medical lecture I attended last week (part of a COVID-19 series which can be viewed by subscribing to Globex Health on YouTube) suggests that those who have had mild or asymptomatic cases (and have developed memory T-cells) are still susceptible to a different strain of COVID-19, and when they catch it, the results are considerably MORE devastating than they are to most hospitalized first-time COVID-19 patients.

            I’m not sure what the actual stats are and the biases implicit in the data collection, but it is something to be concerned about.

          3. Post
            Author

            That could be correct, but the response to that cannot be permanent lockdown. There remain things that can be done to improve innate immunity and that should have been the focus all along. – Perry Willis

        2. IMMUNITY Isn’t it already working? Less people are dying. Viruses always follow that bell curve. Show me one that peaked & stayed high.

          In other words, it seems to be an unenforceable policy since HIPAA laws protect our medical privacy. Stigmatizing disabled people sure isn’t going to work. I like that part of the poster….if you come in without a mask they will just assume you have a disability. To me that’s as far as they need to go. I don’t have a storefront but if I did I’d use this poster. City Officials haven’t even given one thought to the LEGAL jeopardy they are placing businesses under with this one size fits all approach. The mask ordinance conflicts with ADA…it’s as simple as that.

          I can’t breathe in them. I found a stiffer thick one that lets in air if I wear it barely covering my nose but it’s hot. If you wear a mask tight so there’s no gaps you will breathe in your own CO2—that’s definitely not an option.

          How has the human race survived so long if we are this delicate? That’s the thing, if this virus has proved anything— it proves most of us have a pretty good immune system. I don’t need or want their useless interventions.

          There is no way they can avoid lawsuits by making a blanket policy of refusing service without a mask. One store chain already has 30 lawsuits for not letting disabled people in for not wearing masks. Another stupid thing TX gov. Abbott did was make businesses the mask police. Dangerous & irresponsible.

          It really seems tragic to me that people HAVE TO become dependent on others for a reason like this mask issue. Suggesting we have someone do our shopping isn’t freedom.

          I agree completely…they are prolonging our agony & really not accomplishing anything but conflicts & a slower economy.

          I don’t enjoy buying produce online & picking it up. Meat either. Maybe I’m too picky but I really like to inspect what I’m getting —plus I want to consider the “sell by” dates too.

          Something has got to give & I don’t think it should be at our expense. This dystopian nightmare will never end unless we resist.

          Even the sharks (lawyers) are offering pro bono …how amazing. The more lawsuits filed the quicker we get out of this mess. You know as well as I the governor isn’t going to pitch in to help restore businesses that have been sued for following his insipid decisions.

          1. Rhonda, I’m not sure what “worked” in Sweden. Yes, they did not go to the extent of some other countries. However, Sweden is facing similar economic hardships – especially among the lower income population. Their death rate is currently higher than the US too.

            Next, to say Sweden’s approach could work in the US, well, do not jump to that conclusion so soon:
            -Sweden is much less densely populated than the US
            -Swedes did socially distance without the need for a requirement, they trust their public health officials and heed their warnings.
            -Sweden has universal healthcare for all residents which includes paid sick leave so anyone that is sick can stay home and not spread illness (including paid time off to care for an ill dependent)
            -Chronic disease is much higher in the US therefore making the population in the US much more susceptible to C-19 complications (which then brings us back to the fragile healthcare system in the US)

        3. Viruses always follow a bell curve…he’s right about not wasting the money on contact tracing & tests….deaths are DOWN in spite of all the fraudulent counting going on. Faulty tests & exaggerated death counts add up to FOLLY.

          STOP WASTING OUR MONEY— pouring money down a rat hole.

          HE KNOWS THIS IS ALL A FARCE ! I hope he vetoes this bill if they try to pass it.

          Defund the unelected—privately owned– often wrong CDC

          Wearing a mask however is also folly. I’d call that pandering.
          Trump: Wearing A Mask Is Patriotic

          https://hotair.com/archives/allahpundit/2020/07/20/trump-wearing-mask-patriotic/?bcid=6638cca60c69402c163f78317657d61d&utm_campaign=nl&utm_medium=email&utm_source=hadaily

          here’s the good part…

          The Trump administration is trying to block billions of dollars for states to conduct testing and contact tracing in the upcoming coronavirus relief bill, people involved in the talks said Saturday.

          The administration is also trying to block billions of dollars that GOP senators want to allocate for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and billions more for the Pentagon and State Department to address the pandemic at home and abroad, the people said.

          The administration’s posture has angered some GOP senators, the officials said, and some lawmakers are trying to push back and ensure that the money stays in the bill. The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to reveal confidential deliberations, cautioned that the talks were fluid and the numbers were in flux…

          One person involved in the talks said Senate Republicans were seeking to allocate $25 billion for states to conduct testing and contact tracing, but that certain administration officials want to zero out the testing and tracing money entirely. Some White House officials believe they have already approved billions of dollars in assistance for testing and that some of that money remains unspent.

        4. If you feel unsafe around people who don’t wear a mask, just stay home. Wearing a mask is the mark, just as a tattoo or a chip would be, and those of us that don’t wear a mask recognizes that you have accepted the mark!

    2. Many doctors debunked that myth already….in fact they advise against masks.
      If you are compromised you need to stay home.

      1. I would argue that for many who are compromised, staying home is the LAST thing they should do. Most people in those groups are socioeconomically disadvantaged, living in spaces where social distancing is difficult if not impossible (if for no other reason than common corridors between apartments and a common HVA/C system for the entire building). Getting out of the apartment, into fresh air, provides less time in which one is stuck potentially breathing in one’s own and others’ viruses.

    3. Let’s take a different approach.

      What do we know about the long term health implications of having survived a COVID-19 infection? Does knowing that some people have developed neurological complications after beating COVID-19 change your stance on the potential herd immunity from survivors? We learned about similar neurological complications from the survivors of the 1918 Influenza pandemic.

      The only CERTAIN truth is that masks slow the spread. We have seen masks stopping the spread in action around the US and the World. We do not know if a vaccine will ever be effective or safe. Nor would I want to force people to take a brand new immunization developed under less than ideal conditions and timelines.

      We do know masks allow us to return to a somewhat normal state and greatly limits the spread. A very small inconvenience to afford us greater liberties in the near future. Some health care professionals believe consistent mask usage could eliminate the virus in less than 2 months.

      1. I tend to agree with this. (Different approach by Jaret July) But if a mask is only 20 or 30% effective, then some people see that as not even worth the bother. I disagree. But I can see the point of those who don’t want to be mandated to wear masks. More freedom vs. (possibly accurate) public health policy.

        1. Post
          Author

          The other reason to NOT wear a mask is to contribute to herd immunity if you are NOT an at-risk person.

          Freedom would allow both potentials to be satisfied.

          At-risk people can shop during designated hours when everyone wears masks. Everyone else could wear or not wear masks as they personally choose.

          Freedom would haven’t handled this situation better than dictates.

      2. We haven’t a clue about the after effects on a person who had the Spanish Flu, that was 102 years ago, and there was much speculation about it! People, even scientists write their papers based upon speculation! Doctor say there is no benefit to wearing a mask, what are you trying to prove , who do you work for?

    4. Because none of it is proven, just said, but even Fauci himself at one point said masks are not only not effective, but actually detrimental to your health, and many top Doctors have come out and stated that Covid-19 isn’t much worse than the common cold, but the lock downs can be deadly!

      1. Could you give us some links to where Dr. Fauci said this? (and the other doctors as well?)

  7. He is not only one of the few principled people who have held office, but he still inspires people to hold to principle. His son, Rand, is currently my favorite senator. (He is principled, as well)

      1. The problem is that people are so corralled into the two-party system, if he did so, he would be accused of ‘stealing votes’ from President Trump. Beyond that, at least President Trump listened to Senator Paul when Rand reminded him that he did not have the power to open the economy, only the governors do. As much as I’d *love* to see Rand Paul -2020, Clearer Vision For America, there are still too many left statists and right statists to prevent Joe Biden from capitalizing on this. Then we would have an extreme left statist, which would be far worse than what we have now.

  8. Only thing I would add is the following. Most of the rules were imposed to prevent a sudden huge spike (as was seen in NY) where people are injured by overwhelming the medical system so people suffer and die from lack of resources ie slow the growth rate to allow the medical facilities to cope with the patients so doctors don’t have to choose who gets a ventilator for example or who gets intensive care. Could this have been done better with less disruption if had been left more local and more medical than government run.

    1. how you can protect yourself from Mandatory vaccines….
      THE RIGHT OF REFUSAL ***get a guarantee of personal liability in writing from the doctor….if they don’t sign….you don’t get injected.

      How To Say No If COVID-19 Vaccination Becomes Mandatory …

      https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/04/no_author/freedom-advocate-explains-how-to-say-no-if-covid-19-vaccination-becomes-mandatory/
      -no-if-covid-19-vaccination-becomes-mandatory/
      Defying Mandatory Vaccination Plans. Vaccine Epidemic: How … Best Price: $7.50 Buy New $12.99 (as of 06:30 EST – Details) In order to understand how you would be able to defy any initiatives that would attempt to force you or any of your family members to take any vaccines, or ingest or have anything injected into your body for that matter, it is important to grasp one of the most basic …

      In the video below, Day gives a strong indictment against the Bill Gates/WHO vaccine agenda and its inherent risks to each of us personally, and explains what we need to do if we ever find ourselves being coerced by our government and medical establishment into taking a vaccine:

      https://youtu.be/RhxjqAt779A

      The first thing we must do is state our position clearly and on the record to those people who administer vaccines. We are certainly not protected if we haven’t even stated our position. You will see links to two free download documents at FreedomTaker.com. The first document is a requirement that all medical service and vaccine providers sign for you, to acknowledge the risks of vaccines, that they are causing that risk by offering vaccines, and that they accept full personal liability to pay for all damage they cause by administering a vaccine.

      Of course, if vaccines were safe and effective, they would not hesitate to sign a liability agreement… [but] they know they are doing harm, so most likely, they will refuse to sign that document, and refuse to be responsible for the harm they cause. That refusal to sign is evidence that they know that vaccines have risk, and you therefore are fully within your rights to refuse the vaccine regardless of any legal mandates. That type of document is referred to as a ‘Conditional Acceptance.’ You agree to have a vaccine if they agree to pay for all damage you suffer. They will refuse to sign it. And that gives you the right to refuse their vaccine, because they failed to meet your reasonable requirements of safety.

  9. Excellent essay for “anti-incarceration-without-proven-guilty” and it clarifies much about aggression. I want to ask (speculatively) about the Trade Offf between (1) more comorbidity deaths, e.g among elderly and diabetics, fat people, smokers, etc. by allowing normal social-economic activity; versus (2) lockdowns, that stop all productive work except among the on-line elites with capital to be such persons, while all lower-skills persons go hungry or get government money?

    I bet nobody has measured the relative opportunity loss of each individual death, considering the above Trade-Off. Save the elderly and imprudent at the cost of a billion dollars of lost income to every poor worker for each life saved? I don’t think anyone is going to focus on the “cold and hard” analysis about what in lost – and to WHOM (the poorest workers) in this “panic” novel infection, like a more severe 1918 Spanish flu. No lockdown back then. Didn’t make much news.

    Manifestly the politicians have fanned the exaggeration for voter brownie points, “caring” about the deaths and not mentioning the poverty following the long unemployment durations, perhaps for years to come.
    Perhaps only the (unfair) caricature of Ayn Rand would say, “To the gas chambers go!” for comorbid virus victims.

    1. Not to mention the COVID-19 overreaction and its effect on small business, suicide rates in shut-down states, and the mental health breakdown such draconian measures lead to. Almost makes one wonder if statists planned the reaction in advance……

      1. I have three letters to illustrate Penni B’s point: BLM.
        Not only are small businesses in more affluent areas and downtown areas affected, but businesses in lower-class urban areas (where many of the protests have been held) have been disproportionately affected by riots and looting. (Sadly, many of these businesses are owned by the same people BLM is *supposed* to be protecting.)
        The only businesses that can survive this sort of lockdown are the biggest (Amazon, Walmart, maybe Target) and certain underground businesses (private baking, tailoring, Etsy sellers, etc.). The result will be one giant monopoly much like the State-owned stores in the former USSR and its satellite states.

  10. Tell this to my 2 friends who have died from “Rona”. Oh wait, you can’t because they are dead.

    1. Post
      Author

      I’m sorry your friends are dead, but I have no idea what specifically you think is wrong with the article you are commenting on.

    2. We all feel sorry about your loss of 2 friends to the virus. That emotional first reaction from you is the reason politicians get voter “brownie points” for taking your side sympathetically, but never mention the few hundred thousands of dollars of livelihood foregone by hundreds of thousands of living people – and your friends and loved ones probably would have passed away anyway (and there is nothing to be done about it except total social isolation, and then …?)

    3. Tell that to the almost 30 million who can’t pay their rent or house payments…
      Lots more victims on the other side.

      1. That is true, also, we have no way of actually knowing who, or how many people have had or has Covid-19, because the Hospitals are owned by investor groups, and the hospitals are reporting every patient as Covid-19, why? Because they get $19,000 for every Covid patient they admit, and $39,000 for everyone they put on a ventilator! This information is coming from nurses and doctors!

  11. 911: Two planes brought down 3 skyscrapers designed to stand up to plane strikes. How? A computer model supposedly showed how.

    911 is the ONLY event of its kind, never before or since has a skyscraper fire collapsed the building. The morning it happened, I was standing in a crowded room watching the TV and I pointed at the collapse and loudly exclaimed: “This is nothing compared to what the govt. will do to us in the name of protecting us from this.” I was saying the govt. would use our fear against us, e.g., to get new laws accepted that violate our rights, e.g., The Patriot Act.

    Covid-19 is a “false flag” also, and it will be used, worldwide, to some purpose as yet not exposed by the perps. When will people stop falling for the govt. frauds?

  12. I’d like to summarize what has been discussed so far and would like you to think long and hard about the right approach.

    The virus is a hoax – please understand what happened in Italy (and other countries hit in wave 1). Hospitals in Italy ran out of hospital and ICU space which then required Drs to make the painful decision of who gets treatment and who is left to die. This is what happens when the virus spreads rapidly without any intervention. Let’s also look at New York City. NYC had an advanced warning and was able to build out plans to move patients to best take advantage of available hospital beds. Unfortunately, at the beginning there was such an influx of deaths that refrigerated cadaver trucks were used to temporarily store the dead – the NYC morgues were overflowing. The virus is real and does cause an inundation of patients to hospitals. This inundation could result in someone in an accident or other health emergency being turned away or sent to a further care center.

    Herd immunity – first, it is not a fact that humans can develop antibodies that will prevent a future infection. It is still an unknown. With herd immunity, you would essentially allow the virus to go unchecked which will lead to hospital overcrowding and, of course, additional deaths.

    Let the weak die off – maybe we can create an heirloom human? The thought here is that the virus only kills those with weakened immune systems (which is not true, many physically fit, healthy individuals have had severe complications and death). Let’s assume it does only affect those with weakened immune systems, is the suggestion to let them just die off? I suppose some would think “well, its their own fault” but what about those with disease where it is not something they can control? Like those that develop breathing problems from air pollution, or those poisoned by drinking water, etc. Are they just collateral damage?

    Or, let’s not consider these things. Let’s do a simple act of kindness to those immuno-compromised, those that are still working and interfacing with the public, those healthcare workers, those hospitals running out of money, let’s do what WE can control to limit the spread. Let’s wear a mask.

    It is a proven fact that wearing a mask limits the spread of the virus and corresponding disease. Look at NY as a case study. Many parts of NY (that are not super densely populated like NYC) are getting closer to the old “normal” because the vast majority are wearing masks. Restaurants are open and making money. Kid’s are doing little league. People are returning to their places of work. Yes, there are restrictions. The restrictions are working to control the spread which eliminates many of the points above.

    It is simple. Wearing a mask greatly reduces the spread of COVID-19 from an infected person (whether symptomatic or not) to a non-infected person. Some may debate whether an asymptomatic person can transmit it – that is a moot point. When out in public we have no way to know who has any symptoms nor whether someone with symptoms is staying home and isolated. Since we cannot reliably know who has the virus (point to the tests being inaccurate) we are left NO other option but to require a mask for EVERYONE, symptoms or not, to contain the spread. It is, by far, the most simple ask in exchange for opening up life again like NY is seeing.

      1. Post
        Author

        There’s no need to call things baloney or idiotic if your arguments are truly good. I’ve approved your post in spite of the unnecessary belligerence, but you are on thin ice.

        1. Would you prefer hogwash?

          That woman in the store was definitely an idiot….her mask was falling down the whole time she was attacking the other shopper. Hello? You don’t see the irony?

          Vaccines are pseudo science. They have never been proven effective….or even tested adequately. But they have been proven to be harmful. That’s why congress gave them legal immunity….& a vaccine court.
          Nope not taking them…you go right ahead. It’s a way of thinning the herd.
          The sickest people I know all take vaccines…& you can’t reason with them. Look at the Amish….no autism.

          1. You obviously weren’t around when kids were dying of measles, whooping cough (pertussis), polio, tetanus, Smallpox and all those diseases you never or almost never see today due to vaccines. Parents were so grateful for vaccines for their kids that they lined up to get them and we eliminated smallpox and polio we almost eliminated measles till people forgot what a horrible disease it was (leading cause of severe hearing loss and brain damage in those it didn’t kill) and stopped vaccinating.

          2. Chuck….as for kids dying of measles present some stats. The one’s I looked at were minimal.

      2. Not every virus has a guaranteed immunity and it is still too early to call with COVID-19. I, too, avoid inoculations to the extend permitted by law – I surely do not want a COVID-19 vaccine for myself. And I am frequently saddened how far the law has come on required childhood inoculations. My take is that a strong defense is best (fueled by healthy life choices).

        Let’s give it our best shot with physical barriers to slow the spread until we can find a cure (preferred over an immunization shot). I will continue keeping my defenses strong as will my family. But not everyone can afford or understand that approach – another sad topic.

        1. There has never been a vaccine for a corona virus….they sure tried before but they couldn’t make it work & this one won’t work either. In fact if it causes a lot of deaths they will say it was corona that killed them —not the vaccine.
          Have you ever seen the Georgia Guidestones. Look that up.

        2. I have two issues with a COVID-19 vaccine in the near term (that is, within five years of its initial release):

          1. Because it’s being rushed through, we don’t know if this will make recipients immune to all known strains of COVID-19, or if it will just make them more likely to succumb to them than otherwise
          2. We don’t know the long-term effects of the vaccine. It will take 5-10 years after the vaccines are in the general population to determine that (although we’ll probably stop tracking after two years and write off any long-term damage to other confounding medical and environmental issues).

          Given positive immunity and a good five-year track record, I’d be less hesitant about personally taking a COVID-19 vaccine. That said, the long-term fallout of the disease(s) will be the primary informant of whether or not I choose a proven-safe-over-the-long-term vaccine.

    1. This is so obviously sensible that it should surprise me the common response is “What, Me Worry? I demand my Freedom!”
      BUT THE REASON this attitude is emerging so visibly is due to the Anti-Authoritarian impulse that every individual, particularly pre-teens, immediately feel: NO, I don’t want to obey!

      The Authoritarian approach has a BlowBack, big surprise. It would be so much better for a social “movement” to thrust itself forward (possibly led by Women/Mothers/Grandmothers) that declares “WEARING A MASK IN PUBLIC IS LIKE WEARING PANTS IN PUBLIC.”

      Social Shaming is so much more powerful than cop commands.

      1. No one has dared to try to social shame me in person….only online. They better bring a lunch because I’m armed with facts.
        If one of these “karens” dare approaches me I pity them.
        The “SHAMING” also works both ways.
        SHAME ON YOU FOR TRYING TO TAKE AWAY MY RIGHTS.

        1. That is a perfectly good response, and best delivered without shouting or moral posturing. The person you are replying to is the micro-aggressor, so your reply is a micro-deflection and not even rude if uttered in a low-voice dismissive tone that the other person simply “overhears” as you turn away and attend to your own business.

          That is how a Zero Aggression Society would work, don’t you think?

          1. Yep…all you have to do is state facts. These histrionic encounters in stores baffle me. I wouldn’t dare approach someone like that woman did. Some say ignore them but I think they deserve an explanation.

            Same with vaccines, there are so many proven facts that they don’t work. If they did everyone taking them would be protected.

            What really astounds me is all the snitches on city officials facebook pages – tattling on all their neighbors & businesses for not masking. I forget where, but some city published their names so they were taught a lesson.

            I read after the Spanish flu they experimented by swabbing people’s noses with the virus & they didn’t even get it. I think it was that NY doctor Slidell in a video. So that’s how little we know about transmission.
            That’s why they call it PRACTICING medicine.

    2. JJ – You are locked into the belief that masks stop the problem, or slow it significantly. That is simply not true. But you firmly believe it, and I don’t expect you will change your mind.
      Nevertheless, what is FAR more important are the so-called ‘side effects’ from this Worldwide Stunt. The health, welfare, economic and psychological negative effects are and will continue to cause far worse problems and deaths than the so-called virus itself. The response to C-19 is WAY OUT OF PROPORTION to a truly appropriate response. This wildly inappropriate response is the dead giveaway highlighting the conspiratorial machinations behind the whole thing.
      Unfortunately, this particular conspiratorial strategy – a biological pandemic – is working brilliantly and over-the-top successfully. Therefore, it will be milked for all it is worth. After some review of the worldwide results, a bit more strategizing and planning and fine-tuning, another biological threat will magically materialize. That next pandemic will likely be the final one necessary to achieve the goals of the conspirators.
      As Perry clearly and simply says, freedom and liberty is the only answer. Indeed, it is the answer in all cases, at all times. The result of proactive freedom and liberty is never perfect, but is almost always far better than can be achieved in any other way.
      So, REMOVE ALL restrictions. CLEARLY INFORM all citizens of what is occurring, to the best of our ability. OBSERVE what happens as informed free people do what they choose to do. TRUST in the outcome of Liberty, rather than fear and coerce.

      1. Yep….Gates is already predicting another killer virus.

        here’s a card you can carry
        https://www.citizensforfreespeech.org/Donate4?utm_campaign=masks_article_7_15_20&utm_medium=email&utm_source=cffs
        bill_of_rights_b.jpg
        FREE SPEECH: USE IT OR LOSE IT!
        “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” – The First Amendment

      2. BDev, I have lived it. I have seen the positive affects of mask wearing in my community. Yes, there was a side-effect, my wallet was a little lighter as I had to buy masks for my family. I have also seen the side-effects of not wearing a mask. As you say, I am convinced.
        Can you tell me this – if I had COVID-19 and was standing next to you, would you prefer I had a mask on so when I cough or sneeze my viral droplets have a minimal impact or would you prefer my sneeze be in your next inhale? Heck, thats a gross thought without COVID-19 in the mix.

        I’m not sure how people are still under the assumption that the virus is not that dangerous. Its burden on our healthcare system is a fact. Hospitals running out of space to treat (virus and non-virus patients) is a fact. Virus, unchecked, brings these problems.

        True, the more densely populated an area, the easier the spread. So, why not limit restrictions to densely populated areas? Simple, humans travel. Standing next to you I have no idea of your origination, so keep you exhales as close to you as possible by wearing a covering.

        The drawn out economical and psychological impacts could all be shortened if we all took individual steps to slow the spread. Your liberty is just as important as my liberty to not inhale someone’s virus droplets.

        If wearing a mask, whether 1% or 90% effective, allows me to go about my normal business and activities, then so be it. Until we can fast forward time and know all the answers (is a blood type causing the horrible reaction to the virus, or maybe my personal DNA, who knows) doing ANYTHING to slow the spread is a positive step to returning to normalcy.

        1. You are claiming no natural immunity? & you think a mask is going to help?

          It is dangerous if you have other complicatons….but any illness is. I’m 68 and I am not worried at all…in fact I might have already had it I had the sniffles in Feb. No fever or any other symptoms. That’s most people.

          TX has 11 out of 100,000 death rate. That’s miniscule.

          —the instinct of the herd —the mind of crowds

          https://youtu.be/bBgbIxFYh0A

          if we are informed how can we be caving in to the mob?

          The HERD psychology of covid…there’s no chance of an individual appealing with logic or facts to the crowd. Instinctually they will not listen to reason. They seek the herd for safety.

          Authoritative signals draw them in….like a moth to the flame.

          1. Thank you for giving us this YouTube link. I found it informative, but the primary thing I took away from it is: MASK-WEARING OUGHT TO BE VOLUNTARY, as commonly known as “your Right to Personal Liberty.”

            This morning I heard the radio report on the magnificent public statement issued by Gov. Brian Kemp of Georgia. He didn’t argue with the pro-mask claims, but he said it would be up to each person, not a government (at any level under his reign).

          2. I pray GROUP THINK doesn’t kill us all. People around the world are starving at a greater rate.

        2. Wearing or not wearing a mask shouldn’t be an impediment on our liberty. As a suggestion it’s fine—as a requirement it’s tyranny.

          If you are wearing a mask —how could you inhale someone’s virus? That is a joke. You know as well as I that most these masks are porous & there are gaps, so it’s ineffectual to a virus that is microns in size.

          Mostly I see these cloth masks and they aren’t blocking anything anyway. Doctors don’t even wear those. As someone said it’s like using a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out.

          1. You are absolutely right, the mask will not keep YOU protected. Like you mentioned, they are not sealed tight against your face nor are they tested to any standard. A person in a medical setting would never consider using such a device.
            The mask is to keep your saliva and aerosols to yourself and not out in the air the person next to you is breathing.
            I wear a mask because I could be carrying it asymptomatically, or maybe I just haven’t noticed the symptoms, to protect the people around me.
            A policy requiring a mask is not tyrany, it is merely the way to keep society at large protected from the carriers of the virus. If everyone is proactively wearing one then we are doing our best to avoid the spread while carrying on with some semblance of normalcy.

          2. They don’t even know how it’s transmitted. They found covid in ice in Antarctica. I think it’s airborne (not just coughing and sneezing) but it goes around the world so fast it sure can’t only be by close contact.

        3. JJ – Perhaps you are unaware of all the ‘side effects’ that are happening. Where I live huge numbers of people are out of work. Children are not getting educated well, due to the inexperience of parents. Business closures and personal defaults are acute. The psychological stress is growing exponentially worse. Suicides are increasing dramatically. Domestic abuse, depression, paranoia is increasing steadily. Necessary medical and dental care is sidetracked or postponed for scores of people, though that is slowly improving.
          To put it into perspective, for all intents and purposes, C-19 is an elderly population disease, esp in assisted living facilities. The majority of fatalites are there. Among slightly younger people, long term chronic diseases and obesity are the dominant culprits that hugely contribute to morbidity and mortality. If you are under 50 yoa and take good care of yourself, you are essentially immune. If you are over 50 yoa and take good care of yourself, you are essentially immune as well.
          I say all this in respect of ‘official’ statistics. Anyone who delves into the numbers, and takes the time to look behind the numbers to see how they are arrived at, knows that probably 50% of the stats are bogus. Wrong criteria, wrong testing, wrong death certificates, etc, etc, makes a farce of the whole thing.
          Then there are the environmental factors being disregarded (air and water pollution, poor nutrition, deficiencies, chronic drug, alcohol and tobacco use (legal and illegal). There is the insufficiency of the operating paradigms: germ theory and conventional theories of contagion; misunderstanding of the roles of viruses and bacteria as the megabiome and megavirome of the planet (https://megasociety.org/noesis/200.pdf – page 4).
          On and on and on.
          Once all these are seen, understood and grokked, Govt Compelled Human Interaction Monitoring (contact tracing), Govt Compelled Separation of People (social distancing), Govt Compelled Human Relationship Weakening (mask wearing), and Govt Compelled Immune System Destruction (vaccination), is seen for what it is.

          1. I do understand, and agree, that some of the numbers with regards to reported C-19 are subject to interpretation and misclassification. Yes, some may have died regardless of their C-19 status. What is not debatable is the influx of patients when C-19 is allowed to spread without intervention. NYC (past), Italy (past), Miami (now), etc., the list goes on. Many places have lived it or are now in the process of living with healthcare centers that cannot accommodate the need. There is no manipulation of data that can demonstrate otherwise.

            By the logic presented in your statement, it appears the numbers you consume demonstrate that the virus only affects those of ill-health (regardless of whether under their control or not). Are you suggesting we should let them die off, and in the process, overwhelm the healthcare institutions such that someone of “good” health but needing advanced medical intervention is told to go find a place with availability to help them? Or maybe, we look at those with C-19, determine if they practiced good health in the past and, if not, send them home to die so we keep the hospital beds open for those that are good stewards of their health? And make these difficult choices so others can be out in public without a mask on?

            To be clear, I do take issue with your comment that if you are in good health then C-19 will not affect you. That is not true – there have been many cases where a seemingly healthy person has succumbed to C-19.

            The goal is to keep our healthcare system operational and prevent unnecessary loss of lives (regardless of the individual’s life choices). Simultaneously, we want to resume business as close to usual as possible. I want the students back in school. I want business opened. I see the path to immediately get there if people would look at the bigger picture and acknowledge we all have a role in slowing the spread. If you want to keep your head buried and assume everything can open with no measures to limit spread, then you will prolong the suffering indefinitely. The suicides, lack of education, can be directly attributed to those refusing to do their part to slow the spread.

            New York State is an excellent example of slowing the spread and allowing businesses to re-open (with some restrictions). Of course, my tourist town is not overflowing with tourists like usual at this time of year, but all the restaurants are open. Malls are open. Summer day camps for kids are open. All because we agree to wear a mask in public and follow the precautions. The sooner the rest of the country puts their “liberties” aside the sooner they will be able to stop their suffering – after-all, we are in the midst of a pandemic.

          2. Then we’ll agree to disagree. I have plenty of evidence that your statements are false or misleading. You would probably say the same about mine. So be it.
            That said, YOUR personal fear does not, and never will justify your final statement, “The sooner the rest of the country puts their “liberties” aside the sooner they will be able to stop their suffering – after-all, we are in the midst of a pandemic.” Clearly, your personal fears are paramount, and have permeated you through and through. Your intellect is trying its best to justify your fears to yourself, and hopefully convince others along the way. You also use emotionally-laden verbiage to try to appeal to other’s emotions, or else simply shame them into compliance.
            Do you not see the low level-of-consciousness that all these tactics spring from? It is very difficult to shake yourself out of your fear, but it can be done.

        4. JJ – Do a little study of how viruses are spread. You’ll quickly understand that there is no possible way to limit or slow the spread to any worthwhile degree. Heck, that is the point of the existence of viruses: to spread. They are information vectors. Their job is to quickly spread new genetic information around the world, in order to pass along information about changing environmental conditions.
          You, right now, have multiple trillions of viruses in and on your body. So does everyone and everything else you encounter. That’s life. That’s how it is supposed to be. Fear of ‘germs’ is not only counterproductive, it’s counter-life. Without ‘germs’ you’d be dead long ago. Life depends on ‘germs.’
          Did you know that viruses are not living things, but are precise genetic fragments purposefully created by living things? Living things, in response to changes in their environment, go through their own epigenetic modifications/adaptations and incorporate those changes into their own genome. This then creates new and improved responses to the changed environment throughout their individual cells, throughout their body. Every living thing is undergoing these sensations, changes and evolutionary improvements every second of every day. Whilst undergoing said improvements, the living body will produce and excrete its own ‘information-packet exosomes,’ which are mistakenly called dangerous viruses. Every living body produces information-packet exosomes by the trillions every day. These exosomes are excreted by all the normal routes of elimination from the body. Once excreted, they spread everywhere, VERY quickly.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGQEuuv9R6E
          The video above is only a tiny example of ways particulates are spread. Mostly the spread for a ‘virus’/exosome is airborne, because they are so tiny and light weight. Back when the SARS ‘virus’ was initially discovered 20 years ago or so, several days later some scientist who was working in the Arctic studying ice changes thought to test some of his local ice for the ‘virus.’ It was positive. Within a few days the ‘new’ SARS ‘virus’ had spread around the whole earth on natural air currents. It didn’t bother to wait for people on airplanes to spread it. Very impolite of the SARS ‘virus’ to spread like that without permission. We humans like to believe we can control these natural activities. We humans would be wrong.
          I always teach my students – Never, Ever forget that Nature Works. Nature has worked beautifully for Billions of years. She Knows what She is doing. And She will continue to work beautifully for billions more years on our amazing planet, IF we human beings can quickly wake up from our arrogant hubris that we believe we know better than She does about how to run Her operations. WE are Nature’s creations, not Her masters. All She asks is that we get back on track and provide life, in all its forms, with the basic healthy essentials Life needs to operate correctly and naturally.
          Learn and mimic Nature. Biomimicry.
          https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=biomimicry&ia=web
          To give you a quick but amazing and awesome glimpse of Nature’s operations, check out these videos:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hk9jct2ozY
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VhcZTGv0CU
          There are dozens of similar videos, if you are interested.
          Bottom line: This is Life, in action. Life carries vast, supremely adaptive intelligence. DO NOT F*CK WITH LIFE AND NATURE. Do not pretend it wise to mess with these insanely intricate operations by swallowing unnatural chemicals, injecting toxic vaccines, genetically modifying plants, animals and people. Don’t do it!
          Rather, study, learn and tune into Life and Nature. Learn about and correctly provide the basic essentials that Life needs to operate smoothly. Support Life. Harmonize with the natural evolutionary impulse of Life. Learn to flow with it. The result of doing that is not only superb optimum health for as long as you live, but also a wonderful and sublime feeling of bliss, coupled with an unwavering sense of connection and creativity that continually streams through you.

          1. EXCELLENT COMMENT…,people are so dumbed down they don’t even understand how fast viruses can transmit….around the world in 2 weeks usually.

            These interventions are not only more harmful than doing nothing they will be lining up for vaccinations because they don’t have a basic understanding of how our immune systems work. God help them.

            Starving your body of oxygen with masks are another example. EVERYTHING we are doing is just making it worse. You hit all the high points.

          2. Does that mean that the initial hospital surges from C-19 are a fact, regardless of what we do? And will role across regions at some timeline (or maybe once the virus reaches a particular % of “transmissions” in an area)?
            In addition, the drop of hospital admissions is expected and not necessarily a direct result of precautions that are currently being done?

            Trying to understand what was seen in regards to hospital admissions and spikes.

          3. J – The initial hospital surges, from what I can tell, were a combination of legitimate C-19 viral cases (?), other cases of upper respiratory tract illness that were relabeled C-19, and lastly unrelated illnesses that also were labeled C-19. You are probably aware that a very large number of early cases were untested, and simply labeled C-19 upon observation, or based on other clinical data that could/should have resulted in a number of different diagnoses. The reason I place a ? mark after ‘legitimate C-19 cases’ is that there is still no incontrovertible proof that there is a novel new ‘virus’ that is ‘causing’ specific illness. Koch’s Postulates have most certainly NOT been met.
            What does seem to be true is that there are quite a few cases of oddball URT illness that more closely resemble acute hypoxia from cyanide poisoning. But that’s another story… highly likely due to gross air pollution in the early focal cities of spread.
            More info for you:
            https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/lockdown-lunacy-20-second-wave-not-even-close
            https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/horowitz-cdc-confirms-remarkably-low-coronavirus-death-rate-where-media
            https://www.greenmedinfo.com/gmi-blogs
            Almost all so-called ‘epidemics’ do have a ‘lifespan’ of sorts. They appear, they ramp up, level off, rapidly decrease, then remain in the background. Assuming for a moment that this is in fact a real epidemic based on one particular virus, it’s well on its way out right now. Likely it will remain mixed in the smorgasbord of germs all over the world, and those ‘susceptible’ (a susceptibility which is almost always due to ignorant disease-causing lifestyles) may ‘catch’ it from time to time, just like they ‘catch’ influenza virus. Live wisely and you’ll never have either of them. (I learned Nature’s ways of proper human health care 40 years ago, and have never had a cold, flu or anything similar since then.)
            This typical lifespan of a viral epidemic would definitely account for the cycle of hospital admissions and deaths. Currently, the death count has gone WAY down, even as (questionable) testing has risen dramatically, along with subsequent (VERY questionable) ‘confirmed cases’ count.
            As far as I can see, the precautionary measures being mandated, and their disobedience being punished, are solely political maneuvers. Most people believe themselves, and society, require ‘leaders’ to run things. The people who become the ‘leaders’ are, literally always, self-serving narcissistic jerks who will do anything to appear ‘leader-like and wonderful.’ You wouldn’t want to have any of them over for dinner, mask or not. 😉
            So, we are now deep into this manufactured crisis, and narcissistic politicians will milk it for all it is worth. In fact, this whole stunt is so wildly successful (from the ‘always-usurp-more-power-and-control’ POV of the politician), that there seems to be a full-on desire to continue manufacturing threatening numbers until the torches and pitchforks finally come out. RIGHT THEN, magically, we will see a sudden decrease in numbers across the board. Modified mandates, however, will ‘need’ to stay in place, and society will ‘need’ to reopened very slowly, lest another ‘terrible wave’ occur.
            It really is a very sh*tty situation we are in, directly because so many people have been steadily programmed their whole lives to wholeheartedly believe in the necessity of their leaders in the fiction called govt, and have surrendered their personal sovereignty to it.

          4. BTW, here’s some icing on the cake, courtesy of Jon Rappoport, who just mentioned he found this very recent and very comprehensive study about protective measures during epidemics: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
            Face Masks
            “In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs (random controlled trials) that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza trans-mission with the use of face masks…”
            Hand Hygiene
            “The effect of hand hygiene combined with face masks on laboratory-confirmed influenza was not statistically significant…”
            However, studies focused on thorough hand washing alone did show a small to moderate benefit in reducing transmission (BDev).
            Also notable is that this comprehensive study considered and was concerned about the transmission and infection rates on all population groups (including infants, young children), because most types of influenza affect all age brackets to some degree. C-19, however, is virtually non-existent in anyone under 18yoa, and only marginally prevalent in anyone less than 45yoa. If anyone in these younger age brackets do seem to have C-19 (almost always due to some other strongly contributing factor – faulty genetics, immune system compromised, obesity, existing chronic disease etc), you can be sure that MSM and Drudge will shout it from the rooftops in order to continue their childish scare-mongering.

  13. What if our bioweapons labs make something more deadly & release it?

    Dr. Rima predicted THE GREAT CULLING
    will it be by pandemic or starvation?

    1. ….Nationwide Shortages Of Aluminum Cans, Soda, Flour, Canned Soup, Pasta & Rice

      1st devestate us financially….then cut us off on the food supply

  14. Jaret: Calling a demigod’s edict a “policy” is disingenuous. Excusing it from being tyranny because it’s “for the common good” is what every tyrant claims.
    How does a jackboot taste?

  15. I would not consider a requirement of wearing a mask during a pandemic something cruel. If anything, it is the epitome of kindness as you are doing it for the benefit of strangers.
    It is an easy way to protect people we may be in close proximity to affording us the ability to carry about our business.

    1. Epitome of kindness?
      Maybe most of us are worried about Authoritarian Do-Gooders dominating our lives “for the good of Others.”

      1. …SUCH AS

        can this happen here?
        THE PRICE THE WORLD’S POOR PAY FOR THE CON
        THE SCENE FROM CHILE

        https://youtu.be/LEGIVkNAoJw
        MULTIPLY BY EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD

        The vast majority of the world’s people can be classified as “working poor.”

        If they miss a day of work, their families miss a day of food.

        So what happens when a media-fueled pandemic cuts off billions of people from work?

        The news media ignores the issue. Brasscheck
        does not.

        Video:

        https://www.brasscheck.com/video/the-price-the-worlds-poor-pay-for-the-con/

    2. JJ – If you really want to be kind and truly make a permanent difference, put all your efforts into waking people up. Shore up your brain with a bigger picture scope of awareness, and help others to see it as well. Once people are helped to see what’s really going on, the light bulb turns on and insight occurs. Once seen, there’s no turning back into obliviousness.
      Just a couple of days ago I was speaking with a mask-wearing local who was wide-eyed and obviously scared out of his mind. We talked for a little while, and when the subject came up, I simply said, “OK, use your own eyes. Look around. Do you see anyone sick? Do you know anyone who is sick? Do you know anyone who died?”
      He replied, “No, I guess I don’t.”
      I then said, “And even if you did know of a case or two, how many is that, really, in the scheme of things? And if you do know of anyone affected, do you actually know their health history, lifestyle habits and living conditions?? Don’t you think those would all play a huge role in their situation?”
      He agreed, and calmed down considerably. A little while later the light bulb seemed to flick on. Before too long, he looks at me and says, “This is all BS, isn’t it??!!”
      I score that one a ‘win.’

      1. BDev, I think we can agree on one thing – we all want to resume normal activities immediately. In order for that to happen, the virus needs to be under control. Our US governments, nor the other governments around the world, will allow the virus to spread unchecked.
        Based on the current understanding of the virus, current available medical treatments, the ONLY way to get the spread under control (and therefore re-open our lives) is to use physical barriers.

        I, too, now know many more people impacted by the side effects of the restrictions than those directly impacted by the virus. How do I end their suffering? By doing MY part to control the spread which eases the restriction.
        I am focused on getting the spread under control with the tools we all have in our toolbox (masks, distances, limiting large gatherings) so that I can stop the human suffering. I know many closely that have suffered all the side-effects you mentioned (mental health requiring hospitalization, financial uncertainty, etc.) – how did I help them? Besides standing in solidarity next to them, I have the ability to offer direct support – whether buying gift cards for future purchases at their business, calling them while in the hospital to support their mental recovery (and straightening out the trail of destruction before they landed in the hospital). Those efforts were not easy on my, or my family’s part, and it pains me to see people that are not taking steps to avoid the spread and therefore prolonging the suffering lowering the impact of my sacrifices.

        I reiterate, the physical barriers are there to get us back to a normal society in the quickest way possible. The barriers work, unlike anything else currently at our disposal.

        1. No, no and no.
          You obviously have neither understood nor cared about anything I have said. You are operating from a false paradigm, filled with beliefs that are erroneous and simply do not apply. You could study a bit and realize this, but it is far easier for you (and anyone else thinking like you) to run with your current beliefs and protest on this chatboard.
          If you took the time to dive deep into Liberty and Personal Sovereignty, you’d be able to see straight. But I don’t see that happening.
          Maybe you can surprise me, and everyone else here.

          1. Who is the “you” to whom the above message is directed? Such a personal attack deserves to be identified.
            I believe I have understood and cared about what you have written here.

            Are you appealing directly to Perry Willis?

          2. Joe Cobb – Sorry for the miscue; you are correct. With that post I am more-or-less trying to continue a ‘conversation’ with Jaret.
            I suspect that conversation is over.

          3. BDev, no, the conversation is not over from my side but the weekend will take precedence. And maybe a conference call would be a quicker means to discuss our valid points and get each other to meet somewhere in the middle.
            In my quote about “liberties” I put “liberties” in quotes to refer specifically to requirements for wearing masks in public – nothing more and nothing less, I should have been more clear.

            I do have a few clarifying questions:
            First, do you believe that health care facilities have been, and can be, overwhelmed with an influx of C-19 patients?
            Next, do you believe that the C-19 virus is transmitted by saliva or aerosols from our mouths?
            Do you believe the restrictions put in place in NY State allowed hospitals to avoid overcrowding scenarios?
            Do you believe that NY State has gone through a slow and methodical re-opening plan that is allowing NYS residents to get back to a normal life while maintaining control over the spread of the virus?

            I’m not sure I would classify my feeling about the virus, and how best to slow its spread, as a fear. Based on the information we have to date, the life experiences I’ve personally had over the past 4 months, anecdotal evidence from various peers and friends, I have come to the conclusion that a person wearing a face mask is much less likely to spread the virus to another person.

            No one here has presented any other ideas on a balanced approach forward except to let the virus rip and we’ll eventually/hopefully develop an immunity to it. Why would we want to do that again? We are currently watching what unfolds in states where there is either no mask/physical barrier requirement or essentially zero compliance with such requirements. We have also witnessed states where the barriers are required and their current fate with the virus.

      2. you’re right…

        —-busted for over counting cases

        Now they are talking about another lockdown again & there is really no justification. (11 deaths per 100,000 in TX is miniscule)

        Speak up

        They all have facebook pages https://www.facebook.com/nirenberg

        https://www.facebook.com/JudgeNelsonWolff

        They are video conferencing city council meetings now…why? They can mask & social distance like the rest of us. I think they are hiding.

        How did you like the last lockdown? Empty stores are so much fun….what an adventure huh? Survival shopping isn’t one of my favorite things….and it’s all because we have kept taking it.
        Texas health officials remove over 3,000 ‘probable’ coronavirus cases from overall count

        https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/texas-health-officials-remove-over-3-000-probable-coronavirus-cases-from-overall-count

        “Since we report confirmed cases on our dashboard, we have removed 3,484 previously reported probable cases from the statewide and Bexar County totals,” Chris Van Deusen, a spokesman for the state health agency, said to the Austin American-Statesman.

        “The State of Texas today had to remove 3,484 cases from its Covid-19 positive case count, because the San Antonio Health Department was reporting ‘probable’ cases for people never actually tested, as ‘confirmed’ positive cases.- TDHS,” Fox 4 Dallas Evening News anchor Steve Eagar tweeted Wednesday. “What other departments make this same mistake?”

  16. This article is the straw that broke the camel’s back. Almost everything in it is a product of wishful thinking. It ignores asymptomatic transmission and pre-symptomatic transmission. It emphasizes rights, which are the popular aspect of the libertarian philosophy, but IGNORES the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY of the libertarian philosophy. This kind of overtly slanted drivel has wide appeal with virus deniers, and they, after all, are the ones who will kill the rest of us with their wanton reckless behavior, because they have rights, but they will take no responsibility.

    Not only have I decided to permanently terminate any financial contributions to DownsizeDC, I am now asking to UNSUBSCRIBE from this instrument of malicious misrepresentation.

    1. It is true that some advocates are at the end of a spectrum of “how much do you trust” your multiple sources of information, especially when they disagree because data are truly not available yet, with any accuracy.

      Do you disagree with ZAP’s claim that Voluntary is better, because it keeps the “Locus of Decision” with the individual – not transferred to “the Authority Figure”? We agree that “Better” is a value judgment, but are not all value judgments also individual perceptions, subjective values, perhaps agreed by observers but they still cannot SEE inside your personal values.

      A bit of open-minded tolerance would be a valuable thing to possess, in my personal value system.

    2. Bruce – Are you one of the troll army that has been alerted to this webpage because it is getting significant attention?

  17. This conversation is staring to move in a circle or a dialog between two people. I suggest we jump up a level of this topic and ask

    Is Passive Aggression still something the Zero-Aggression Principle opposes? It is not “force” in any sense other than withdrawal of consent, withdrawal of friendship, withdrawal of favor.

    Clearly all those “micro-aggressions” (this is the ‘new term’ in vogue) seem to add up to [something] that provokes hostility and even anger, riots, etc.

    I have tried to figure out what my supposed “White Privilege” amounts to, and it is just this: Nobody makes me think about “race” at all, except angry non-white protestors. I am sure they feel uncomfortable in ways I have never felt, except when visiting a Blues Club on 47th Street in Chicago to hear classic “Chicago Blues.”
    Someone said to Anglo me, “What are you doing here?” So I motioned to my larger African-American host of that small music-seeking party and the hostile person retreated.

    But my primary ‘White Privilege’ in the past 3 months has been my accrued level of savings from my younger life as an office worker. So, “inequality happens,” and nobody “caused” it. Nothing to blame, actually.

  18. Don’t be distracted by pseudo appeals to reason, as if there would be exceptions when rights can be violated. Respect for rights is not a vague social convention that may discarded as impractical sometimes. Rights are inalienable, i.e., not subject to changing circumstances. Their basis is our humanity. That doesn’t change, only our understanding of it as individuals. Some will always violate rights and insist they are justified. They need to be defended against, but violence should be the last resort.

    If it were found out that a vaccine did great harm overall, that wouldn’t prove the anti-vaccine stand. The advocates would say: “Mistakes happen.” They imply a specific result is not relevant. They are correct. A principle is at stake. Their principle is the group trumps the individual, e.g., truth is found by consensus. And generally, a large group is more knowledgable than an individual, as in “the crowd wisdom”. Discussion among many tends to inform all, benefit all, change all, when all start with open minds.

    In politics and religion that is not the case. Minds rarely change, no matter how wrong, how destructive. It takes an exceptionally rare individual to spark a paradigm change. Societies evolve slowly, but they need that spark that groups have traditionally crushed or ignored, e.g., the murder of Socrates. Without the individual, the group is lost. Without the group, the individual is lost. There is no dichotomy. If the group violates an individual’s rights, it violates all the individuals in the group.

    1. Voluntaryist – The place to start is with Reality, yes?
      Individuals exist.
      Groups/collectives/governments/corporations do not. They exist only in people’s minds. They are not ‘real’. You cannot see them, touch them, smell them, hear them, taste them. You cannot talk to a ‘government’ or a ‘corporation.’ You can only talk to an real, living, breathing, individual human being who, in their belief-ridden mind, believes they ‘speak for’ or ‘represent’ the govt, a corp, an activist group or whatever. It’s merely the Wizard of Oz writ large. No substance there at all. Only belief.
      But of course that fictitious belief is huge, strong and convincing to almost everyone. Same as defining what it means to be ‘crazy’… it’s a numbers game. If enough people believe the same crazy idea, then it’s considered normal. If virtually everyone believes in a mythical entity called ‘govt,’ then it’s considered crazy to point out that it doesn’t exist.
      So when you say the individual is lost without the group, what do you mean by that phrase? Most certainly any number of individuals can voluntarily come together to create something, discuss something, get something done. Those gathering together does not magically birth a fictitious entity called a ‘group’ or corp or govt or deep state or whatever. No matter what the scenario, label or designation, it’s only living, breathing individual human beings interacting. That’s all.
      As soon as tangible substance is given to a mere thought, then massive delusion rapidly builds and spreads. The meme takes on a life of its own. People assign legitimacy to the belief.. even rights and powers and personhood to the ephemeral belief. The imaginary entity becomes ‘real’ in the minds of millions… so real that actual individuals somehow begin to feel obliged to surrender some of their own rights, powers and sovereignty to this hallucination.
      When you stop, step back and see it, the whole situation becomes bizarre and incredible… but there it is.
      Now tie that in with what’s happening right now with beliefs about C-19. Tie that in with ephemeral beliefs about the ‘legitimate moral powers’ of an imaginary ‘govt, imaginary ‘ WHO, and WEF. Tie that in with common beliefs about a ‘killer virus’ seeking out victims (viruses are not alive; they are lifeless, inert, dead genetic fragments that have zero power to ‘act’). And so on and so on. Once you see through these belief constructs that everyone carries around, the whole world opens up into a new reality, based on actuality.
      The trouble is that now your eyes are open, but you must continue to deal with herds of people whose eyes are still closed.
      Trippy.

  19. BDev, enlightening.
    One may be able argue, one side or the other, that we would not be where we are as a species if it were not for these entities. We could even argue do we want to be where we are as a species, therefore making the “entities” moot.
    However, our existence does not change based on the answers to those questions. We, as individuals, choose to live in a society. While we may not agree with the group direction we do have a responsibility as a member of the society to act in accordance, to an extent, with the policies that allow society to thrive. We all have likely benefited from these policies and have also likely suffered from other policies.

    As a member, we have certain responsibilities. In the C-19 world, our responsibility is to keep our fragile medical system functioning. While it is agreed, those susceptible to the bad aspects of C-19 will eventually face it, current policies are merely delaying it. If herd immunity exists, the thought is that we need 70% penetration of the immunity. To get to that 70% without a slow-roll, we certainly risk much more than we are currently feeling. Likewise, we have responsibility to enlighten and challenge those around us.
    A careful path, which does not strictly adhere to a specific unwavering stance, is required if change will ever happen.

    1. Jaret – You make good points, and we can have some fun addressing them. I would only ask that you play around with my observation that many of the things we take for granted, as ‘givens,’ are not so. If you contemplate that for awhile, and stretch it out to challenge many of the ideas and beliefs you carry around, you’ll be amazed at what occurs inside your mind.
      If you can do that for a little while, and then we can discuss, you’ll have a VERY different view and perspective to speak and write from.

  20. Jared: “We…benefited…suffered from some policies.” No tyranny is perfect, correct? Violence doesn’t always work, correct? But if we just keep submitting we are comforted in our suffering that our ruler has our best interest at heart and is using force first for the collective, correct? It’s intent that counts, not net results, correct? Furthermore, we all “know” our faith in force is justified, is the only way to order, correct? How do we know? Why, our masters told us, showed us “forcefully” from early childhood-college. We are allowed to speak, to question, within limits chosen by our betters, for our own good, and the good of society. Why? It’s always been that way (rulers/ruled) and that’s because it’s the only way to live, correct? We MUST be forced to live by laws set down by rulers or chaos we prevail, correct? We must crush all who reject our faith in force as they are anarchists who seek chaos, correct? No rulers means no rules, correct?
    And there you have the lies, the primary political superstition upon which all nations are founded. And all change must not violate this superstition, or else!
    I rejected this superstitious politics since 1st grade, identified it as wrong at 12, and determined a better way at 23, e.g., reason, rights, individual sovereignty, freedom to choose for all. Why? It’s a requirement of being fully human, a necessity for realization of our cognitive potential. Anything less diminishes us. I have refused to submit to authority, psychologically, all my 77 years, and am more fully human for it.

    1. This reply to Jared is an eloquent statement. I agree and endorse it in full.
      The “dialog” – step by step – method of your didactic presentation was very good and exactly what one would do leading a naif to better understanding.

      I am also 77, and somehow we elders have a lot of perspective on these things.
      [self-flattering and “age-ist” Ha ha {;^)) ]

      1. All very good discussion. The comments have certainly led to a deeper understanding of the position, and perhaps about viruses in general.

        Thinking more critically, regardless of whether the approach/solution/etc. may be correct, is trying to solve a problem created by society with a solution aligned with the individual an exercise in futility? I fail to see a path to success when resisting a societal solution to a problem created, and potentially only solvable, by a society.
        If choosing not to participate is the solution, then it seems that non-participation would have to apply to all aspects of society – even those the individual benefits (or survives) from. Otherwise you are seen as an outcast and the individualist paradigm may never be able to advance.

  21. Jaret: Libertarians (soon to be Voluntarists) have argued over the best outreach strategy for 50 years. How do you talk to someone who has been indoctrinated in the ruler/ruled mentality since childhood in school? And this government “ed” has been going on for over a century, so generations of deluded have lived/died.

    Larken Rose offers a course called: “Candles in the Dark” where he teaches a non-confrontational method similar to the Socratic Method. I took it and highly recommend it.

    Certainly, living like outcasts is a surrender, an affirmation of futility, and hurts all of us. Is this all we can do?

    No! Resistance is NOT futile!

  22. Thank you for your carefully thought out responses, being civil and educational. It has certainly helped and has allowed an open mind to see things a bit differently.

    I will offer one more thought. Aggression is subject to interpretation by the aggressee (not sure if that is a word – read “as the subject of the aggression”). I think we can agree using aggression to promote ZAP is not only counterintuitive, it is doomed to fail. Regardless of how the C-19 facts and data are manipulated, and the conclusions drawn from them, the fact remains that society has followed the loud, repetitive voice that a mask and physical barriers are necessary. Trying to apply an individualistic or voluntarist approach to the societal “norms” around C-19 is going to be viewed as aggression to society and therefore a non-starter in the dialogue for change (applying aggression to achieve ZAP). As members or residents in society, we must use the tools compatible with society to achieve change. Unfortunately, if you are promoting or seen without a mask the preconceived notions (or unconscious biases) of those around you will shout louder than any point you are trying to make therefore doing nothing to free the truth.

    Please think about that and those you have tried to alter the thinking of. It takes a very specific type of person to be open minded and willing to listen and not just argue. Unfortunately, the number of open minded individuals is low as “society” pushes individuals to identify with an ideology (Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, etc.) which then creates the closed mind. While data manipulation can prove A and B at the same time, the truth is likely C.

    1. Point of experience:

      It is very difficult to speak with anyone – much less discuss or argue – when so much of our dialogue becomes hidden and muffled by masks.

      I know I have suffered vocal cord damage by having to shout to be heard as a muffled whisper beyond my employer-required (or other store-required) mask, through an upper respiratory system that has been dehydrated by both fibers from the mask (all mask inner liners have fibers that are inhaled when you breathe through them) and the inability to drink freely to lubricate my throat.

      And since I usually have my hands full with products and tools, I don’t have the option of gesticulation (much less ASL – which I do not know, but which some well-meaning non-Deaf person might mistake as “cultural appropriation” if I did).

  23. Jaret: I agree “…society pushes individuals…” as in forces all to conform to the political consensus, i.e., the politics of the initiation of violence, threats. Resistance seems futile because many have closed their mind to argument. Facts are irrelevant to them. They worship violence and authority. Arguments against their superstition feel like a personal threat, an attack on them. It isn’t of course, it’s an attempt to save them from a dangerous delusion. They fight for their delusion like they would fight for their life. Although history they have crucified truth tellers. It is dangerous to be right when the majority is wrong. Closed minds kill.

    That said, reality can not be avoided, no matter how willfully blind. Ignorance will eventually destroy civilizations. Faith is not a plan, a defense, or rational. Reason identifies reality, promotes life, and only the reasonable survive, in the long run. You can critique tactics, e.g., openly flouting authority by civil disobedience, but you can’t offer an alternative. How would you “free the truth”?

  24. The “overreaction”, the “gross errors”, are not errors, but a planned campaign designed to expand political control and test the will to resist.
    This is an inevitable result when the political paradigm is coercive, uses violence, threats, fraud. Not until this paradigm is replaced with a non-violent one will humanity be able to progress politically.

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