November 3, 2025
A podcast pastor says that Christians should know how to defend slavery using the Bible.
“The institution of slavery is not inherently evil,” declared Joshua Haymes. “It is not inherently evil to own another human being. It is very important that every Christian affirm what I just said … every Christian in today’s society should be able to defend what I just said … Christians in America have been led astray on this topic.”
Wait. Defend Slavery?
This came to Jim’s attention because a prominent Facebook libertarian posted the clip. He was provoking Christians for sport. But that fact is secondary, too. A better question is…
Does this matter?
Well, Joshua Haymes is not just any pastor! He served on the staff of Pete Hegseth’s “back home” church – meaning, before Hegseth became Secretary of War. Haymes is no longer on the church staff, despite media reports to the contrary. But Haymes’s podcast is co-hosted by Brooks Potteiger, the lead pastor of that church. And Hegseth has appeared on their show four times, as recently as 2024.
Is Pastor Haymes just trying to get attention? Or is he sincere? Those are good but secondary questions. Better questions are…
Is Haymes correct? If so, why? Is he wrong, then why?
The responses to the Facebook libertarian who posted the clip were defensive, even angry. The comment thread was largely made up of debates that sounded like, “No, we’re not” – “Yes, you are,” or the classic “Why do you hate Christians?” But hardly any of them could explain their emotional reaction.
And the reason for this? As Jim pointed out…
- It’s because many believers agree with Joshua Haymes’s underlying hermeneutic – his method of interpretation. Additionally…
- Pastor Haymes is being consistent, while fundamentalist and evangelical believers react with cognitive dissonance.
For these reasons, we titled our show…
Why Do Fundamentalist Christians Dislike Jesus?
OR…
Base image by Chil Vera from Pixabay
Why should you care about this conversation?
First, our politics has come to resemble prison gangs, hanging together for survival. Each side becomes increasingly radicalized as the stakes rise. Gradually, their principles and values diminish beneath the sheer, petty jubilation they feel as they defeat their “enemies.”
Politics is a Conflict Machine – a coercive system for solving social problems, where there must be losers. Some radicalization is a natural byproduct of the Conflict Machine.
There must be a better way!
Of course, we should reject the Conflict Machine and be Zero Aggression voluntaryists! But let’s address this particular matter with valuable precision.
We must gracefully talk with radicals. Daryl Davis is a role model for this. If possible, we should have these conversations in front of others – prospects for the message – who haven’t yet committed their identity to a gang. They are not only more dangerous once they become members of an extremist cause, but also harder to reason with.
Let’s give them better arguments before they tie their identity to extremism or hate. This requires going to the root and providing real answers. This is where Gracearchy with Jim Babka comes in.
Second, you should care because Christians exist all around us. Even if you’re not a believer, Jim shares a hermeneutical approach that you’ll prefer and will likely want to share with your believing friends.
These arguments are historical, biblical, and literary. Jim’s explanation of Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac is unique and eye-opening.
Bonus: If believers embrace this approach, it matches with libertarianism.
But it’s where Jim ends up that got to me. When you’re done watching the entire thing, you’ll understand what I mean.
You can listen while you work or drive on these podcasting platforms: Spotify * Pandora * iHeart * Apple, and several other platforms.
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ZAP The State and have a nice day,
Bill Protzmann
Moderator, Gracearchy with Jim Babka
Jim Babka is the co-creator of the Zero Aggression Project. However, the views expressed in the show do not necessarily reflect those of the board, staff, or supporters of the Zero Aggression Project (Downsize DC Foundation). Sometimes, we use ChatGPT or AI to help with blogging elements.